Official Luthiers Forum!

I guess for me it boils down to the difference between " Skill" and " Talent" They are NOT the same thing , I have seen Many "Skilled" Guitarist , A Lot Smaller Number of Truly " Talented" Guitarist

I have seen some Very " Skilled" Builders and have had a few apply that term to my work ( not me ) I believe the number of Truly " Talented " Builders is quite Smaller

If a person is willing to work at a craft they can become " Skilled" You Cannot learn " Talent"

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Many people can aquire the technical skills to build guitars. However, in my opinion, a luthier is a person who has the intuition and knowledge to coax the best sound from a particular pile of materials. I can personally build nice guitars, but even after 20 + builds, what emerges at the end of the process, sound wise, is pretty much a crap shoot. I think a luthier would be able to pretty accurately predict the final result . Furthermore, he/she would be able to work materials to achieve optimum results.

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Under Compensated Nut!

It isn't as easy as some may think. To make a good guitar takes skill. Tooling is something of choice. I have seen people with limited tools make some very nice guitars and on the other hand I have seen people with impressive shops make less than stellar guitars.
This is a question that has no answer as it is based on an individuals skill level.
I would say on average , it may take you about 5 to 10 guitars to just dial in what you need to know. A guitar is more than a box with strings. Learning the geometry , and how to true a neck and dress frets takes skill and understanding. In a nutshell
" You don't know , what you don't know till you know it". Few builders learn this on their own. You need a mentor and desire to understand the process.
On average I would say 4 yrs to really learn how to do this. Don't think you can build 2 guitars and hang a sign out. Take your time and you will soon see that you can do this as a hobby business and work your way up.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Good answer, John.
Tai, I think you will be a great luthier.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Yup sure was. I still have a set too and they have been great!

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I agree with your comments 100% too. I'd add too that IMHO a luthier makes more than just guitars. I am a guitar maker who one day will probably make a mandolin after that just call me anything except late for dinner.

I just want to make clear that the above was a joke.
Guitarmaking is only ever going to be a hobby for me.

Unforunately, on this one, I agree Tai. I don't see the useful point here. And it seems you are only going to create controversy where none is required.

Why? Why is he creating controversy? As I read the original post he is simply asking how much skill is required to be a professional luthier. He compares it to a computer technician, a somewhat basic one IMO. It's quite an interesting question. Unfortunately one that is not straightforward or easy to answer. It's no different to asking how much skill is required to be an airline pilot, a surgeon or any other occupation that you care to name.
As a guide: to gain a Diploma in Violin making/repair here in the UK takes 3 years full time study, from the well respected Newark school of Violinmaking. I've personally known 3 people who completed the course. All of them were competent by the end of that course. One was what I would describe as gifted. That amount of study is probably something near the minimum that one would require, although I'm quite sure that there are exceptions who could do it in less time.

Wow what a question. I think repair and the ability to make a mediocre in instrument sound better. Play into it. My mentor has about 2000 builds all hand made. He started in the early 70's. he is a master luthier. I've made a guitar that makes me a luthier ,but not a very good one.i think if you spend your days building and repairing stringed instruments you are by definition a luthier. The adjective in front of the title is the challenge.

It's really not all that intense of a subject. I had a guitar student. She had accompanied me to a party and performed had a great time. I received another invitation about a month later. This time they were thinking of limiting the party to songwriters only. I guess I had mentioned this to her. Anyway her next lesson this little 8 yr old girl came running in the house sat down in front of me and handed me a piece of paper. All 27 lines both sides were full of her handwriting. Now I had a bit of a time reading her 2nd grade writing. I finally finished looked at her and said " Did you write this"? She said yes. Could it be a song? She asked. Well yes we could set it to music. I like it. She says does this make me a songwriter. I told her yes you are an official songwriter. Good she said, does this mean I get to go to the songwriter party? Yes little girl this means you get to go to the party. She did go and performed her song brilliantly. So I guess she's not in the caliber of a Carol King but " A Rose is a Rose by any name".

Super! You know in 11-12 years of racing I never had a flat with a Corsa CX.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I'm sorry. I misread the OP thread, and it was a bit too early as well.

Well i for one don't get the joke and I'm not even a blonde.
Here's one:
Q. How do you get the best sound out if a Banjo?
A. Throw it hard into an empty metal dumpster.

A luthier is a person who makes lutes (or guitars, mandolins, etc.). So anyone who builds such instruments can call him or herself a luthier. I suppose they would be technically correct. That much would be fairly easy. Being a good luthier would be substantially more difficult. Being a great luthier would be extremely more difficult.

My point is that the internet is full of people who call themselves luthiers. These people are of varying levels of skill and accomplishment. There are lots of really good luthiers out there, but they are a small percentage of the overall population of people who call themselves luthiers. The really great ones are an even smaller sampling of the overall population.

It's easy to be a "luthier". It's much harder to be a consistently good luthier. It's vastly more difficult to be a great,
in-demand luthier, whose work always brings a premium price.

Then we get into another category: Those really consistently good or great luthiers who know how to repair instruments. That is a specialty in itself.

Tai, I am not sure I fully understood your question, so I replied with these rambling thoughts. You have shown us some considerable skills from time to time. I wonder if you are beginning to judge yourself against the work of others who lack your skills, but who have, nonetheless, pronounced themselves to be luthiers. My advice is to ignore those people. They crop up in every profession. Just press on and do your best every time.

Just that some "professional sounding" titles are totally unprotected. You need qualifications to be a dietitian but you only need to call yourself a Nutritionist to become a nutritionist.

Weren't there tests for luthiers in Germany? Someone would visit your workshop and watch you perform a few tasks before you were legally allowed to use the term?

The field of lutherie has exploded since I first started in the 1970's. Back then, there were only a few within driving distance. Now, it seems they are everywhere. The internet is responsible for much of the change....either because other luthiers are easier to find, or because the availability of information encourages more to give it a try...at least on an amateur level.
Some aspects of lutherie came easy for me, but I had to have extensive practice to become competent at others.
For example, refretting looks deceptively easy, but it probably took 100 refrets before I had a good handle on it. My results are not that much better now, but I am much more consistent, and the time spent is less.
Resetting necks is another skill that requires practice. I am now over 1350, so it is pretty routine.....and much quicker.


I have been riding tubulars since 1973, and the only flat I have had was when I rode through tornado debris in 2011 on a really old D'Alessandro.
I bought some slightly-used Corsa CX's on Ebay, but I haven't put them on my bike yet.
Old and new
1973 model. Bought new, and still truckin':


2008 model. Built from a used frame I found on Ebay:

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John

Nice hardware there John! Much mojo on the Atala. My first bike boom bike was a 73 UO8. One of my kids converted it to a fixie and still rides it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

The market will soon decide how good you are. The fastest way to go out of business , is to go into business before your really prepared. What makes one a good one over a bad one ?
Not easy to answer but much is hand skills. I think someone posted about talent , and to this I will add experience. I worked as a hobby luthier for about 10 yr before I took on real paying jobs. There is so much you need to learn. There are many claiming to be good , but your customers will determine that in a hurry.
A luthier is one that works on stringed instruments. So if you just work guitars, your more a guitar tech than a luthier. If you can set up a violin , and know how to string s harp as well as a guitar than you may be a luthier.
If you are looking at this as a trade to learn the best advice I can give anyone is to get training , and gain experience. When you can take a yard sale guitar apart and put it back together , and it doesn't look like you took it apart ,, you are on your way. Also don't get sucked into My way is the only way. I have seen great techniques from newbies and horrid ones from experienced people. Find what works and again , the client will soon determine your value.
As posted above Natural selection will ween out the good from the bad.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Yea, everyone with a table saw thinks they are a cabinetmaker...everyone with a bandsaw a guitar maker.
Best advice I can give is don't quit your day job!

Pretty much says it all.

It makes no sense to say that it takes X number of years to acquire a skill, you can say it takes x number of hours.

As Wudwerkr says ... natural talent will out.

Rod Schenk sold the second guitar he ever built, for a cool $5000, at Healdsburg, no less.

I do believe that some are placing a very narrow definition on the term Luthier. Originally it was applied to Lute makers (from the French Luth) but since there aren't many lute makers around the term has since been broadened to include anyone who makes stringed musical instruments, plucked or bowed. There is nothing in the word that suggests you have to make a range of those instruments to qualify for the term. Someone who makes nothing but Violins is a Luthier. He/She is also known as a Violinmaker. Someone who makes nothing but Guitars is a Luthier. They are also known as a Guitar maker. Someone who specialises in repairs may be a Luthier. It doesn't really matter. If the repairer calls him or herself a Luthier I'm hardly going to quibble about it. I think the term is a little less definite than some are suggesting.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

+1 john hall, and john arnold the voices of experience.Please reread their posts , a ton of words of wisdom, born through , blood , sweat ,an tears in the luthiery business.

Hey, whats so funny? I've got a table saw.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

This question is like Luke asking obiwan how hard it is to be a Jedi.
There is no answer except it is as hard as you make it. I prefer to think of it as a daily challenge to be better. Some days you win, some days you lose, but always moving in a forward direction. Then, if you haven't quit, after years of practice one day you will know you are a true Jedi....um I mean luthier